catholic answers forum working4christ2

ltwin · May 8, '13, 7:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic4Christ

I've got a few questions, just off the top of my head...

1) What are your thoughts on sacraments, sacramental theology, etc.? I would imagine that the Catholic or Orthodox views regarding the sacraments/mysteries are not a part of your personal faith, though I wonder if a Pentacostal would be open to the possibility that the sacraments as understood by Catholics are manifestations of the Holy Spirit's work. Do you only consider Baptism and the Lord's Supper to be 'sacraments', as many other Reformed groups do? Or does the general concept of sacraments not figure into your faith life?

You will hear Pentecostals use the words "sacrament," "ordinance," and even "sacerdotal ordinance" in describing the two rites instituted by Christ, baptism and the Lord's Supper. (Some Pentecostals add a third, foot washing). Pentecostals believe that God is always present in the midst of His people, so anything done in faith and among a corporate body of believers will definitely be opportunities for the Holy Spirit to work through.

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Originally Posted by Catholic4Christ

2) Spinning off of the last question, what do you believe occurs at Baptism?

Someone who has made a confession of Christ is obeying Christ by being baptized in water. In doing this physical act, the believer is "burying the old man" and rising as a new creation. This physical act representing an inward reality therefore seals the spiritual commitment and allows the believer to enter a new phase in their walk with God. Old things have passed away and all things have become new. This freedom and liberty often is a profound experience for the believer. Often, Pentecostals rise from the waters of baptism filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues or just praising God as the Spirit rests on them.

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Originally Posted by Catholic4Christ

Also, what are your thoughts on the Eucharist?

Most Pentecostal theologies advocate a combination of the Calvinist and the Zwinglian views. As Assemblies of God theologian Frank Macchia says, Pentecostal sacramental theology is complex because the practical side is not really reflected in theological formulations. We've sort of just borrowed what other evangelicals have said because we're lazy like that.

Both baptism and the Lord's Supper are opportunities for God's redemptive presence to be known through the power of the Spirit. The Lord's Supper is a means of grace (like prayer, church attendance, and prayer) provided we partake intelligently, not partaking irreverently or without discerning the realities that we are participating in. As Myer Pearlman wrote in the The Pentecostal Evangel :

Let us also remember that as we partake of the emblems we are to look beyond them, and beyond the server, and see the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, who said, ‘I am the Bread of Life’. Beyond the wine we must see His shed blood, which is His divine life poured out for us. The Head of the church will Himself administer the Sacrament, as we receive Him by faith.

It is very important that non-believers or those believers that are not right with God not take communion. Pentecostals believe that God can heal through partaking of the Lord's Supper, but that one can also become sick if one takes it unworthily.

In the church I grew up with, the Holy Spirit often moved beautifully when we took communion.

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Originally Posted by Catholic4Christ

3) You've said that you don't view one church as being superior to another, but for you personally, what is attractive about your church (and/or congregation) that other communities lack?

I just like congregations that are open to the Spirit's move. I like churches that wait on God and give Him permission to do what He wants to do in His own house and His own church service. I like churches that aren't afraid to pray and believe for the impossible. And I like churches that don't cater to one set of people or social class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic4Christ

4) Naturally, the Bible and Scripture is important to your faith. Do you have thoughts on the Deuterocanon?

I haven't read it much if any. I think the standard evangelical Protestant position is that they should not be used for development of doctrine, but they can be used for personal inspiration and encouragement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic4Christ

5) Just a personal question: What's your favorite verse/passage from Scripture? And what's your preferred English translation?

2 Corinthians 12:9 is one of my favorites. I like the English Standard Version.

ltwin · #51 May 8, '13, 7:27 pm

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Originally Posted by Steveabrous

1) Do you believe that speaking in tongues is required for salvation?

No. See post number 47 on page 4 for more information!

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Originally Posted by Steveabrous

Or gives you a better relationship with Jesus then someone who doesn't?

I don't believe that. I believe it helps me in my prayer life.

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Originally Posted by Steveabrous

Because Paul said not all will speak in tongues, and that it is the least of the gifts.

Paul said, "Now I want you all to speak in tongues" (1 Cor. 14:5) later in that chapter (verses 23-25) he gives two hypothetical scenarios, one where the entire church was speaking in tongues and one where the entire church was prophesying. To me, this indicates that Paul thought it was at least possible that everyone a local congregation would possess vocal gifts. If it wasn't possible, why make use of this hypothetical situation?

And Paul does not say that tongues are the least of the gifts. He said uninterpreted tongues within a congregational setting could not edify an entire congregation and so should not be done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steveabrous

2) of all the gifts of the holy spirit why is speaking in tongues the only one that has to be "taught" as many churches hold classes to teach people how to speak in tongues.

Speaking in tongues doesn't have to be taught. In fact, it can't be. Tongues are a gift from God. "Teaching" someone to speak in tongues is unbiblical and impossible. It is possible to teach people to make sounds, but it is not possible to "teach" someone to pray in the spirit. Gifts cannot be taught, only imparted.

ltwin · #52 May 8, '13, 7:28 pm

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Originally Posted by coachkfan1

But isn't all of Protestantism based on "new revelation"?

No.

ltwin · #53 May 8, '13, 7:33 pm

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Originally Posted by coachkfan1

Your pastor is the shepherd of your congregation. You have already established that in your opinion, the "other" Pentacolists are heretics. So where is the Christian unity in th e Pentacostal community? Isn't there supposed to be one shepherd and one flock? Scripturaly speaking, of course.

I didn't say "other" Pentecostals were heretics. I only said that Oneness Pentecostals were heretics. This is the consensus of Trinitarian Pentecostals. The Oneness doctrine is a heresy.

There is a lot of unity within the Pentecostal community. Most classical Pentecostal denominations participate in thePentecostal and Charismatic Churches of North America. There is also a World Pentecostal Fellowship.

**grannymh** · #54 May 8, '13, 7:36 pm

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Originally Posted by landon13

Biblically, tongue praying wasn't something you do whenever you want. You pray in tongues in scripture in order to be interpreted as a witness to God, not for your own personal experience and feeling. How do you know that it is an actual thing from God and not just a thing provided by the devil to make you believe it is from God? Or an invention of yourself wanting to pray in tongues? Just wondering. Not trying to be rude.

Biblically, there are two separate Holy Spirit gifts which employ tongues. St. Paul refers to speaking God's message in tongues in 1 Corinthians, chapter 12. This list of nine classical gifts is considered as ministries to the community. In 1 Corinthians, chapter 14, St. Paul contrasts what is known as the common gift of prayer tongues to God with the ministry of speaking in tongues followed by the gift of interpretation.

Steveabrous · #55 May 8, '13, 7:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

And Paul does not say that tongues are the least of the gifts.

1st Cor 12 ; 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

He says first are Apostles then he seems to list them in order of importance and then says desire the greater gifts. Notice tongues are last.

Also 1st cor 14:5 " I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[

You quoted the fist part and left out the part in bold. I have noticed the proponents of speaking in tongues tend to only quote The parts of 1st Corinthians favorable to it, and leave out the majority that down plays it.

you said Paul would like all to speak in tongues but in Corinthians he says:

What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31

And 34 Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[g]

Please don't misunderstand me. As I said I know many Speaking in tongues types I consider better people then myself and closer to the lord. But I have been around it all my life due to my location. They all claim scripture is theirs but leave these parts out. It seems like they are cherry picking.

ltwin · #56 May 8, '13, 7:41 pm

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Originally Posted by pismopal

What conclusion do you draw from the fact that very few non Catholic denominations, emphasis on VERY, and the Catholic Church do not encourage "speaking in tongues" as an expression of their Christian commitment?

No conclusion. I don't consider tongues as an expression of Christian commitment. I consider it a gift from God. If I were in the business of "judging" other people's Christian commitment (which I'm not), I would look at whether they exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit rather than a spiritual gift.

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Originally Posted by pismopal

Do you consider "speaking in tongues" as a litmus test for Christian commitment?

I don't consider tongues a litmus test for anything. It is a gift.

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Originally Posted by pismopal

If either of these questions are answered with a "yes"...are you discouraged about the condition of the bulk of the world's professing Christians? May I advise you that I am a person who has attended Pentecostal services as a spouse and observer in the 60's when SIT was SOP and currently at Four Square Pentecostal services at my brother in laws church, speaking in tongues is not encouraged or incorporated. My point is that SITongues is not as common in Pentecostal services as you might think..or wish.

I find it odd that you would think I would not know that many Pentecostals do not speak in tongues. I know that. The problem is that most non-Pentecostals are not aware of that.

ltwin · #57 May 8, '13, 7:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steveabrous

yet when so called "prophesies" that were spoken through tongues with an interpreter do not come to pass they are said to have gotten a false spirit.

I know many pentacostals they all say you have to be careful and check everything with scripture because a demon can get in and cause confusion. You think it's the holy spirit and it's actually a demon.

Well, we can all be deceived. If something is wrong, there is only three explanations: someone was acting in the flesh or someone was acting under the influence of a demon or both. It is our responsibilities as Christians to test everything according to Scripture.

**grannymh** · #58 May 8, '13, 7:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pismopal

What conclusion do you draw from the fact that very few non Catholic denominations, emphasis on VERY, and the Catholic Church do not encourage "speaking in tongues" as an expression of their Christian commitment? Do you consider "speaking in tongues" as a litmus test for Christian commitment? If either of these questions are answered with a "yes"...are you discouraged about the condition of the bulk of the world's professing Christians? May I advise you that I am a person who has attended Pentecostal services as a spouse and observer in the 60's when SIT was SOP and currently at Four Square Pentecostal services at my brother in laws church, speaking in tongues is not encouraged or incorporated. My point is that SITongues is not as common in Pentecostal services as you might think..or wish.

There may be individual Catholics who do not encourage either of the two separate Holy Spirit Gifts which employ the use of tongues. However, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church teaches that the common gift of prayer tongues is offered by the Holy Spirit. This gift is not mandatory and it is not a litmus test for anything. One needs to remember that the Catholic Church considers the Sacrament of Baptism as primary.

joe370 · #59 May 8, '13, 7:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

"Ask a [input your non-Catholic religion here]" threads seem popular. So, any questions that you want to ask about Pentecostalism?

I was just wondering one thing if you don't mind me asking: do you consider the Pentecostal church to be the true reformed church of Jesus Christ? If so then where does that leave the Catholic church, in terms of being the true church established by God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem circa AD 33?

ltwin · #60 May 8, '13, 7:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by landon13

From your comments, you make it seem like the gift of tongues is just something you asked for and were magically given.

I didn't ask for the gift of tongues. I asked for more of God in my life and to be filled with His Spirit. In response, I was given a prayer language. I was not asking for any gift, I was asking for more of God.

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Originally Posted by landon13

Not something that is a gift of the Spirit that is not asked for.

Where is it written that spiritual gifts should not be asked for? In 1 Cor. 14:13, Paul states, "Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret." It is perfectly fine to pray that God would empower and equip you for your vocations and ministries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by landon13

So if you remember your Bible, whenever people like at Pentecost were given the gift of tongues without asking God for it, they had someone to preach to. They did not just start babbling in some foreign language that no one could understand. They spoke for someone to hear what they were saying or for someone to interpret it. So at Pentecost, for example, the disciples spoke to the people of many nations that were gathered there. Other places in the New Testament where tongues are mentioned they are to be interpreted. No where in Scripture or in Sacred Tradition are people speaking in tongues just to babble on to God.

I'm sorry but I want to tell you that I do not believe that you have the gift of tongues. I believe God can grant this gift to people but I don't think He magically gave you this gift just at your bidding.

God bless!

My experience agrees with that spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14. There are different purposes for unknown languages. Some are prayer languages while some could be "missionary tongues." We cannot throw out what Paul says in 1 Corinthians because it is inconvenient for us or does not line up with our experiences.

I have a prayer language. If that is too much for you to believe, then its a good thing that you don't know me personally and will never have to hear me pray in tongues.

God bless you too.

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Tuesday, May 14, 2013

catholic answers working4christ2--Re: Ask a Pentecostal

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